SUPER SURF (standalone surf game)

[They call me queer]

In fact I understand it so well I was able to recreate it, down to the physics engine level.

This is unimpressive for 3 reasons.
1.) 99% of games since 1996 have it built into their engine.
2.) It's an extremely simple concept.
3.) You didn't do a very good job quite obviously because of how slow you fall.

[Enhex]

This is unimpressive for 3 reasons.
1.) 99% of games since 1996 have it built into their engine.
2.) It's an extremely simple concept.
3.) You didn't do a very good job quite obviously because of how slow you fall.

First of all I appreciate the feedback, and I'd like to make few things clear.

1. I only know about Source engine, that's a single instance.
2. It isn't straightforward at the physics engine level. You're welcome to try to implement it yourself if you don't believe me.
3. That's just setting a single variable, that's completely meaningless.
Source have x2 normal gravity and my project has x1.6.
If players would prefer stronger gravity it takes a second to change, and it could be made configurable.

Regarding the previous post:

- u/s isn't a recognizable unit. You don't measure things IRL with u/s (which is actually inches per second).
That means you have no references to how fast your speed is. In the video 200km/h is your actual speed, it's just that the level has huge scale (which is my bad).

- The in-game browser can be used to save the URL you enter and automatically open it when you start the game. (You can enter a music playlist/radio for example)

- Player skin is like weapon skins in CS:GO but for how the player looks (other players can see), but without having to pay for that and you just need to pick an image (like sprays).
To make a skin all you need is basic knowledge of who to use image editor (Photoshop, GIMP, etc).
That means you can put whatever you want on your player, be creative. I think it adds a lot of value to the multiplayer, checking out what other players came up with.
Here, I just made an example:
Editing skin
In-game front
In-game back

The rest of your arguments are things that KSF added with mods. That's a good sign because it shows these are things that people want. The problem is that it's only KSF you're talking about, not all surf servers.

Other than that you ignore the benefits the mapper/host gets.
I'm sure KSF had to put a lot of work to make their servers as good as they're, and not all hosts are going to do that. Most will start with only setting air_accel and using surf maps.
For the mapper a lot of overhead work and pitfalls are removed. That means making maps will be faster and easier.

[Syncronyze]

Okay, to begin, we're two different people who commented. You implied that it was "my previous post" when it simply wasn't.

Saying that km/h is more recognizable is stupid. It's a video game world, and like I said in my previous post, you have no reference to what a kilometer is. It literally doesn't even need to be any units after the number, and in my opinion it wouldn't matter. Claiming that it's a feature is stupid. It could literally say "22" is your walking speed, and "200" is your average ramp seed. It does not make a difference because there's no point of reference for what exactly it is you're measuring when you're surfing. A stage can feel so much smaller simply by raising the speed, and much larger by lowering it. If you look at something like surf_stonework3, it doesn't feel all that big, yet you're going 3500u/s but often times it doesn't feel that way, but if you compared any of the ramps, pillars and such to the player models side-by-side they'd feel almost out of place. Simply because you're going so fast. Point is: the units doesn't matter, what it's measured in simply does not matter, and thus it being advertised as a "feature" is just stupid.

In-game browser is hardly something I care about. It's a "whatever" feature in my opinion, as in I wouldn't miss it if it wasn't there but I guess it's a neat option. Nothing we don't already have anyway.

Player skins seem a bit silly, but again same premise as above, where I wouldn't miss it if it was removed.

Yes, I am talking about KSF. You know why? Because you're on KSF forums, and this is a community built for surf. The reason that KSF is the most competitive network out there is not only because it's the oldest remaining community, but because it's for the most part well managed with a strong community behind it. Sure, there are some examples of bad in it, but that goes for anything anywhere.

As for the mapping section I felt the points weren't even worth my time to cover, but since you're very adamant of me covering it, here you go. As a mapper myself, yes hammer does have a hard learning curve, but for me it did work out of the box. All I had to do was go into my /cstrike/bin folder and launch the .exe. As for the rest, it's little things that aren't really a challenge, and really only remove a small portion of what makes up the mapping process. Most maps are indoors anyway, so adding walls that fit together (without gaps) is still there, and the rest is detailing. Yeah, there's some instances where it would be nice not to have to worry about leaks or skybox brushes, but there's nothing in that section that would make me jump ship to start working on your version for unless the community was there to back it. Hardly anything that would revolutionize mapping as you insist it would. Sidenote- Trigger_teleports are nice aswell for both the player AND the mapper, as it allows for nice walls, with a quick way to get back to the spawn if you fuck up (See: surf_lt_unicorn)

And the communities that are out there, if they do not want to compete with the standard then they will fail. A skill server without a timer will be dead in the water. If a community is what you want, then yes of course you're going to have to put time and effort to collect mods and things to ensure people want to stay. As it stands now, if you want to host your own server for your buddies, it's ridiculously simple.

You need to realize that the community needs to come first, because you can interest mappers and you can interest hosts, but it doesn't matter if there's nobody to play the maps and play the servers. You should start listening to the feedback you received and not just take it like your way is the right way, because chances are if you're receiving feedback, it's because people care. When you stop receiving feedback, that means people don't care anymore.

To clarify the point of my argument: Why would I as a consumer, not as a mapper or a host, want to play this version over the established version we have already?

[Enhex]

You like what there's on the KSF servers and you don't want to change anything, therefore you have no interest in any other surf game. That's fine.

Regarding feedback, the only feedback from the previous posts was an implicit "gravity is too low".
So I'll test increasing the gravity to x2.

But saying "Some of the things are already modded in on our specific community, and for the rest I don't like them", which is basically "I don't want anything different, and I reject anything that's different" isn't useful feedback, what can I do with? It's useless.

If you're really want to help you could learn about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_criticism and take an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective_approach

[Enhex]

I chatted with Syncronyze on Steam and several things came up:

My map format has maximum vertex precision. No vertex deformation.
That fixes some clipping problems.

Syncronyze said that the autojump implementation used by surf servers can randomly fail. Mine doesn't.

No clipping with vertical ramps.

"classic" and "super" modes
Classic inspires to stay true to the source as much as possible.
Super attempts to create an experience which is more fast paced, more "classic racing".
Super mode also offers lower entry barrier for new players.

Since there'll be a classic mode a VMF map importer makes sense. Though VMF is a proprietary file format so it'll require a permission from Valve.

start and end zones - pre-strafe possible.
I still want to find an elegant solution for preventing pre-hopping.

Turn key binds

checkpoints - can be used to return to the last stage beginning. Removes the need for teleporters.

Spectator mode.

[SyFo is CP]

Please add a race feature, like a feature where you could challenge players to a race

[evolv]

It has potential but needs two things.
1. Some type of new feature or function that sets the stand-alone mod apart from regular surf.
2. A baseline community that is willing to adopt your surf mod over pre-existing ones on CSS/CSGO.

[Enhex]

Please add a race feature, like a feature where you could challenge players to a race

Race is a good suggestion.
Wouldn't a race including all the players would be more exciting?
Maybe an open challenge, letting anyone on the server join if they want to?

It has potential but needs two things.
1. Some type of new feature or function that sets the stand-alone mod apart from regular surf.
2. A baseline community that is willing to adopt your surf mod over pre-existing ones on CSS/CSGO.

Now it really depends how you define "regular surf". I'd define it as what you can get without modding, otherwise what's regular about it?
If you don't consider mods as regular surf then standardizing the good ones makes the game stand apart. That's how mods like CS and TF became standalone games. CS and TF date back to Quake 1 mods:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOwPcmcOSNY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FVJ__rBFxk (I'm sure you wouldn't call this regular CTF in Quake 1)
If you do consider mods so basically the only things that would count are things which are impossible to achieve with modding games based on Source. In that case the game engine level stuff like physics stability (like some of the clipping problems), tools, special features, and defaults are the places for improvement.

Regarding a community it's a matter of finding people who're interested in the game.
That also connects to point #1 - Making the game have all the good stuff from the get go means all player will have the best experience, and more of them will stick around.
If you compare it to Source games, you can't even open a Surf server without knowing how to configure it and getting some surf maps.
bigger community around a game is important because it leads to more maps and servers, which means better experience.

[streebree]

The reason people like surfing is because it has a high learning curve, allows pixel perfect execution, and an endless potential to always be smoother. For example, strafing adds a slight amount of speed if done slowly but takes away speed if done too fast. These mechanics allow for route optimization and endless improvements. They are incredibly difficult which makes the community very competitive. People like surfing because of how difficult it is, yet relaxing, giving you a goal to slowly work up to.

What you’re trying to do is create a game that is easier to pick up, with less penalty for turning too fast or having to prestrafe. This is not going to appeal to anyone here at ksf because most of them could master it in 15 minutes. Your only hope is that it will appeal to people who aren’t familiar with surfing and just want to hang out with friends or something. However, to them it will probably seem boring and overly simple. The way I see it, you’ll have to drastically change the core concept of your game if it will ever succeed. For example you could:

1. Make a single player story mode that plays like its own puzzle game like portal or maybe an adventure game / platformer like Mario 64 where the adventure is the focus, not speedruns.

2. Make the level editor so simple anyone can open it, create something and play with friends immediately. Like as simple as drag and drop blocks with a "submit map" button that sends it to the server you’re on. The next map will be the map you submitted and people can then vote on whether it should be added to the normal rotation. I'm basing this off the trackmania games. They got popular because of how easy they were to map for with a fast map rotation.


A few extra side notes:

- I don’t know anyone who left ksf because of ramp glitches, vertical surfing, or bhopping. I don’t think people care about that stuff enough to leave css.

- I don’t know any games that succeeded because their servers were super easy to set up. Think about minecraft. That game was incredibly successful, yet for 2 years the server system was impossible to set up for anyone not familiar with routers and port forwarding, etc. Focus on the game, not the technical aspects.

- An easier version of surfing already exists. 100 tick servers serve this purpose exceedingly well. We could also just increase air accel if we wanted it to be even easier.

- In game browser sounds like a slower way to alt-tab. Plus, the browser probably doesn’t have add-ons like adblocker and it probably doesn’t have my bookmarks saved. I’ll never use it.

So yeah, if you make the game a clone of css surfing, it will have no appeal. You should try to innovate because that’s what people here want to play. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

[horsefeathers]

So I fiddled around with the level editor and this is what I came up with: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...urf_bricks.lvl
its not much, but it was good for gauging how far your level editor and your game needs to come. Firstly the mouse input lag is better than before but its still pretty bad. I found it very hard to be precise while surfing. Also your lighting engine needs and update, I'm looking for baked lighting, bounce light, and directional lighting (like a sun). A nice feature also would be light textures.

So for the editor, these are some things that I think need to be added:
1) Mouse drive on the 3d view. The 3d camera is very hard to control right now with just using wasd and arrow keys
2) Clip tool (or slice). This is probably the most useful tool in hammer and certain things are very difficult without it.
3) Brush groups/object groups. These are pretty standard and also very useful.

Now some other useful things that I missed from hammer:
1) window edge scroll (when dragging something past the bound of the window, the window should scroll)
2) different tools to modify brushes quickly from the 3d view, like rotate
3) vis groups, these are user defined groups of object that control visibility.
4) brown lines; in hammer there are brown lines ever 1024 units. this is very helpfull gauging distance when zoomed out.
5) bigger grids when zoomed out; in hammer when you zoom out, the grid size changes. when you zoom out you see less grid lines.
6) property buttons. on the side panel with properties and everything, none the fields have button to modify there value.
7) color picker, wherever there is a color option there should be a color picker for convenience
8) change vertex snapping; right now whenever you move something, it will snap to a vertex, I like this in principle especially for making ramps, but when moving a large selection, I found that it would snap to a vertex off screen and I would have to zoom out to position it properly. perhaps you could make it an action by holding a key down while moving.