Add a new tier between Exceptional and Experienced

I think doing so is good for a few reasons, which are:

1. New players on average don't farm g1 t1's nearly as fast as people that come on KSF that are already familiar with how to surf well, so it takes them quite some time to farm up the 20k or so points to get Exceptional. I think this causes them to become discouraged from playing on KSF after a while, I don't know the stats but I don't think many people that reach the 3k point mark for Experienced play to be anywhere near the 20k point mark. I think adding a rank at around the 10k point area (1k overall rank or so) will motivate these new players to continue playing as there is an obtainable rank within reach. It's no secret that people like to be rewarded for their effort, and I think the reward is just too far off.

2. The Exceptional rank as it is currently is just 1 step up from Experienced, however I don't think this is representative of how good people at 3k-12k points are to people that have Exceptional. I think adding the new rank would increased the value of Exceptional to where it should be.

3. I think this will generate more donations. Again I don't have the stats but I'm pretty sure that most VIP's are at least Experienced and as I think this change targets people that have at least committed that time and effort, a change that increases the possibility of them playing on KSF will make it more likely that they donate.


just a quick micorsolution lol


I'll bring Scotty's suggestion to the top because I actually prefer it over mine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by scotty

so at a minimum copying css ranks below exceptional would be a good first step and i would even double that in scale for csgo

12000+ Experienced
8000-11999 Skilled
5000-7999 Casual
2000-4999 Beginner
0-1999 Rookie

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More ranks = less satisfaction by getting higher ranks = less motivation to play - it's how I personally see it so I don't think it's needed, just my opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Masog

More ranks = less satisfaction by getting higher ranks = less motivation to play - it's how I personally see it so I don't think it's needed, just my opinion.

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I think the amount of players discouraged from continuing to play because of the long grind between experienced and exceptional outweighs the people that feel a big sense of accomplishment by grinding to exceptional.

Exceptional rank is also diminished by being just 1 step up from 3k points. I think the sense of accomplishment will be greater to some people if there was a rank between them and Experienced. So they aren't just 1 step up from someone that's played for a few hours or so.

I don't think additional tier is required, the grind from exceptional to experienced is not even too long, you can literally just play all tier 1-3 maps and get g2-1 in 30 of them and you're pretty much there.

Also I doubt it would generate more donations since you can just change your tag when you buy vip.

I agree with masog, it would be less satisfying if you got a new rank more often

i think you have an interesting point but maybe the wrong idea

here are the current csgo ranks:
http://imgur.com/ZczF4ii

~rank 3900 in csgo will get you experienced with 3000 points

the next rank is 500 for exceptional here:
http://imgur.com/qWBEYuM

these ranks have been around a very long time
i think for csgo, maybe adjusting the points for ranks below exceptional would make more sense

let's look at css ranks here:
http://imgur.com/DZq4UJY

the next rank is 500 for exceptional here:
http://imgur.com/8Neebds

so for csgo you have to go from 3000 points to ~20000 points
for css you have to go from 6000 points to ~21000 points

there are over twice as many surfers that are ranked in csgo than css and it is much easier to get improvement points on low tier maps
for example, i have ~6600 improvement points on 168 maps for css
i have ~6400 improvement points on 17 (!!!) maps in csgo

so at a minimum copying css ranks below exceptional would be a good first step and i would even double that in scale for csgo

12000+ Experienced
8000-11999 Skilled
5000-7999 Casual
2000-4999 Beginner
0-1999 Rookie

i'm sure evolv/untouch have their reasons though and it would anger everyone 12000 points and below

i can only speak for css, but the difference in skill between rank 500 and 300 is huge
the difference in skill between 300 and 100 is even more crazy
the top 100 surfers on css are in a different tier altogether

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blink

I don't think additional tier is required, the grind from exceptional to experienced is not even too long, you can literally just play all tier 1-3 maps and get g2-1 in 30 of them and you're pretty much there.

Also I doubt it would generate more donations since you can just change your tag when you buy vip.

I agree with masog, it would be less satisfying if you got a new rank more often

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I don't think that holds up though. I think that if more people were actively playing it'll generate more donations. Statistically speaking. I think this change will make for more people playing because the next tier up is within reach.

I think the majority of VIP's are people over Experienced rank that have committed to playing. I think the change I suggested would increase the people committing to play.

Also it's not a simple task to get g2-1 in 30 maps. It is for people like us that know what we're doing but on average it'll take a long ass time for a new player. For example I can smurf up to diamond on league in 2 or so weeks, but it'll take years for some people.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by scotty

i think you have an interesting point but maybe the wrong idea

here are the current csgo ranks:
http://imgur.com/ZczF4ii

~rank 3900 in csgo will get you experienced with 3000 points

the next rank is 500 for exceptional here:
http://imgur.com/qWBEYuM

these ranks have been around a very long time
i think for csgo, maybe adjusting the points for ranks below exceptional would make more sense

let's look at css ranks here:
http://imgur.com/DZq4UJY

the next rank is 500 for exceptional here:
http://imgur.com/8Neebds

so for csgo you have to go from 3000 points to ~20000 points
for css you have to go from 6000 points to ~21000 points

there are over twice as many surfers that are ranked in csgo than css and it is much easier to get improvement points on low tier maps
for example, i have ~6600 improvement points on 168 maps for css
i have ~6400 improvement points on 17 (!!!) maps in csgo

so at a minimum copying css ranks below exceptional would be a good first step and i would even double that in scale for csgo

12000+ Experienced
8000-11999 Skilled
5000-7999 Casual
2000-4999 Beginner
0-1999 Rookie

i'm sure evolv/untouch have their reasons though and it would anger everyone 12000 points and below

i can only speak for css, but the difference in skill between rank 500 and 300 is huge
the difference in skill between 300 and 100 is even more crazy
the top 100 surfers on css are in a different tier altogether

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That would make the distance between Experienced and Exceptional less however it would also potentially make people that would have been motivated by getting a rank at 3k give up because they need to have 12k before getting to the next tier. Essentially creating the same problem I described for Experienced to Exceptional but now with Skilled and Experienced. I think instead of doing that adding a new rank at around 12k will allow players to be motivated to get to it, and then motivated to get to the one that isn't ridiculously far off in a new player perspective.

Edit: Sorry I didn't fully read what you wrote, I redact my previous paragraph. I like your suggestion. Making the earlier ranks have higher requirements but still spacing them well is a good suggestion that I agree with. That can totally work and wouldn't require a new rank. As for angering people 12k and below, I'm not sure about that. Me personally I wouldn't mind it if I was a new player but that's because I like working towards every rank and progressing slowly but at a good rate. As it is now the bottom 4 ranks are all pretty much rookie tier 1-4 and not an actual indicator of progress.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Masog

More ranks = less satisfaction by getting higher ranks = less motivation to play - it's how I personally see it so I don't think it's needed, just my opinion.

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Ranks don't really get satisfying to climb until you hit Expert in my opinion (however that may have just been because i started when expert wasnt all that hard to get). And if there is an imbalance in chat ranks like OP is describing, then seeing you need to double your points or whatever to get to the next chat rank is much more demotivating than there just being an extra one in the middle.

I just would like to clarify that we can't look at CS:GO ranks in the same way like we would look at CS:S ranks, just saying. In CS:GO I believe you get a few thousands points for g1s on maps like mesa, aircontrol, leet and stuff. And g1s on these maps are like top 1k players or so, so it really isn't hard at all to get - every Exceptional player should be able to get top 1k on any tier 1 map, right? So when Experienced player's skill hits the level of getting g1's on tier 1 maps he will get Exceptional in no time.
To sum up what I said, in CS:GO you get way more points for completing maps because of a really big playerbase AND need less points to rankup than in CS:S because of less good players. Well, even I was Master in CS:GO after like a week of a little tier 1-3 grind, I think I had like 60 completions back then. I don't really play on CS:GO for like over half a year and I believe I'm still top 25 and that makes me think that ranking up is so easy in CS:GO that it's especially not needed, if ever, I would add another rank for CS:S.

And yeah, I kind of agree Juxtapo, I remember when I hit Expert in CS:S ~2 years ago or so and that was the most satisfying so far, but Exceptional was the first big rank gap that made it really satisfying to get too, and then there was Hotshot that no one really cares about.

And Scotty's double scaling points ranks idea is pretty good, it would make less big gaps between ranks in CS:GO.

Everything below expert = rookie

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Originally Posted by THERAPIST

Everything below expert = rookie

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:- (

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Juxtapo

Ranks don't really get satisfying to climb until you hit Expert in my opinion (however that may have just been because i started when expert wasnt all that hard to get). And if there is an imbalance in chat ranks like OP is describing, then seeing you need to double your points or whatever to get to the next chat rank is much more demotivating than there just being an extra one in the middle.

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Yes it's probably because you started when expert wasn't hard to get. I'm almost Expert now but I definitely enjoyed climbing up to this point. I think that with Scotty's idea it'll make things a lot more fluid when ranking up. You'd get constant satisfaction instead of this weird disconnect when you hit experienced. I also think more importantly it'll make the bottom 4 ranks more meaningful as new players will stay at each one longer, so progressing for them will be more satisfying and more indicative of improvement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Masog

I just would like to clarify that we can't look at CS:GO ranks in the same way like we would look at CS:S ranks, just saying. In CS:GO I believe you get a few thousands points for g1s on maps like mesa, aircontrol, leet and stuff. And g1s on these maps are like top 1k players or so, so it really isn't hard at all to get - every Exceptional player should be able to get top 1k on any tier 1 map, right? So when Experienced player's skill hits the level of getting g1's on tier 1 maps he will get Exceptional in no time.
To sum up what I said, in CS:GO you get way more points for completing maps because of a really big playerbase AND need less points to rankup than in CS:S because of less good players. Well, even I was Master in CS:GO after like a week of a little tier 1-3 grind, I think I had like 60 completions back then. I don't really play on CS:GO for like over half a year and I believe I'm still top 25 and that makes me think that ranking up is so easy in CS:GO that it's especially not needed, if ever, I would add another rank for CS:S.

And yeah, I kind of agree Juxtapo, I remember when I hit Expert in CS:S ~2 years ago or so and that was the most satisfying so far, but Exceptional was the first big rank gap that made it really satisfying to get too, and then there was Hotshot that no one really cares about.

And Scotty's double scaling points ranks idea is pretty good, it would make less big gaps between ranks in CS:GO.

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I strongly disagree with the notion that when you get your first g1 you climb quickly. In my own experience and from what I've seen the average player usually gets a few g1's ends up around 8k points and then slows down considerably. I think this is due to the daunting and annoying grind ahead of them. At least for me g1's on t1 maps are really boring to get, so much so that I did t4's before I even felt the need to grind out g1's. And yes, I also think Scotty's double scaling points is a great idea.

Additionally, your own experience with CS:GO ranks don't reflect that of new players. You got master in 60 completions because you were already good at surfing. You were basically smurfing in a game you already mastered. That's true in any game ever, which doesn't equate to how difficult it is to reach that point for a new player.

why fix whats not broken?

"12000+ Experienced
8000-11999 Skilled
5000-7999 Casual
2000-4999 Beginner
0-1999 Rookie"


I don't think you should change how much points you need for lower ranks in csgo. When I started surfing grinding to beginner alone (1000pts) took me a really long time, I think making it be 2000pts would motivate people even less, although when I surfed there were less people therfore less points per group.

I agree with TooM3R that increasing the point requirements at lower ranks will discourage people. Increasing the points just recreates the problem you were trying to solve by creating another rank tier. However, I like the idea of creating another rank between experienced and exceptional because experienced is such a diverse rank. The skill difference between an experienced rank player with 6k points and 10k is huge. You should be able to estimate how good a player is just by looking at their rank, but for players of the experienced rank this is not the case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rool

why fix whats not broken?

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Because it is. If you disagree refute the points I made.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TooM3R

"12000+ Experienced
8000-11999 Skilled
5000-7999 Casual
2000-4999 Beginner
0-1999 Rookie"


I don't think you should change how much points you need for lower ranks in csgo. When I started surfing grinding to beginner alone (1000pts) took me a really long time, I think making it be 2000pts would motivate people even less, although when I surfed there were less people therfore less points per group.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by murglegurgle

I agree with TooM3R that increasing the point requirements at lower ranks will discourage people. Increasing the points just recreates the problem you were trying to solve by creating another rank tier. However, I like the idea of creating another rank between experienced and exceptional because experienced is such a diverse rank. The skill difference between an experienced rank player with 6k points and 10k is huge. You should be able to estimate how good a player is just by looking at their rank, but for players of the experienced rank this is not the case.

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From my experience with leaderboards/ranked systems, games lose players more frequently when ranks are easily obtainable. I think this is because of players having instant gratification for almost no work, so when they look at their rank and it shows up as "Skilled" they perceive it as they're skilled at surfing, therefor they lose interest in progressing that they otherwise wouldn't have if that rank was harder to reach. This may not be obvious as CS:GO has such a high population that rookies are replaced constantly with an unending stream of people willing to try surfing. However this becomes a problem when you're trying to retain players and have a more competitive and active community when it comes to long time players. I think in the long term a system that doesn't instantly gratify new players will result in more of the same people sticking around and increasing their skill levels, which in turn makes things more fun and can lead to an increase in donations because it's people like that who donate.

The issue lies in the fact that Exceptional and above are based on ranks, while Experienced and below are based on points. This means that as more people play, and competition increases it becomes far harder to get Exceptional, while Experienced stays the same. This is what is creating such a huge void in between Experienced and Exceptional. The debate is not about how easy or difficult it is to get Exceptional, it should be about the distribution of ranks in general. Whilst I'm not online to check atm, I feel confident in saying there's far more Experienced surfers than Skilled surfers on CSGO. In CSS, there's over 1000 Experienced surfers compared to just 150 Exceptional surfers (basing this off memory). If anything, this devalues the Experienced rank because everyone seems to have it with very little effort. There's nothing to distinguish between me having 20000 points and me having 6000 points, despite 14000 points being more than enough to go from Exceptional to Hotshot (I believe). I'd love to hear an argument as to why lower rank transitions (Experienced -> Exceptional) should require more points than higher transitions.

I have played on servers that have like 25+ ranks. It does take a lot of the thrill out of ranking up. I like the number of different ranks, and the breakdown of the ranks from exceptional onward. But I do feel like the grind from experienced to exceptional was an incredibly daunting task for me when I first got experienced. What kept me going was that I just liked surfing, the only thing that changed was my goal at surfing. I started grinding points instead of beating maps, which I feel slowed how well I was learning to surf. Getting g1s on most of the high point maps is remarkably easy if that's all you do. I like how the gap between experienced and exceptional is big, because getting in the top 500 is a decent accomplishment and should require work. But I feel like if experienced was like 6-8k and you couldn't get it with just two g1s it would encourage people to focus more on completions and get a wider map variety nominated and voted for. I just recently started showing an IRL buddy of mine how to surf, and granted I have been doing everything except putting my hand up his ass like a puppet and surfing for him, he is almost experienced in like a week or two. Meanwhile even at his pace it will probably take him 6 months or so if he keeps at it to get exceptional. That is a lot of time and dedication to get 1 rank, I feel like a lot of people need to be teased with the dangling carrot a bit to keep it up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robotron

I have played on servers that have like 25+ ranks. It does take a lot of the thrill out of ranking up.

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The amount of ranks isn't the issue with those servers though, it's the lack of competition. KSF has competition so it can have more ranks and still feel meaningful for players. The issue with the current system is the massive gap between two of the ranks, which has no reason not to be fixed.