People are gonna hate me

[Sam]

Okay so first things first, I'm not saying this because I just got a map on ksf myself. I know most of you morons will say that anyway but maybe you wanna hear me out first.

After going through the whole process of getting a map on ksf (eventhough my map sucks ass and didn't nearly take as much time as most other maps) I realized that mappers are essentially people who put dozens of hours of work into free content for you to enjoy.
So my suggestion would be to reward mappers with vip for limited time, whether it's one set amount like 1 month or separated in tiers depending of how much effort is put into the map and how much content it provides.

[Kusché]

We'd be left with endless flood of shit maps when everyone becomes a mapper and gets free vip and then ksf goes bankrupt

[Sam]

We'd be left with endless flood of shit maps when everyone becomes a mapper and gets free vip and then ksf goes bankrupt

I meant that AFTER going through the vote for being added and getting added to ksf they get rewarded. People would still only accept the same quality

[Mooster Cow]

"dozens of hours"

[Sacred]

"dozens of hours"

Well, son, I'm sure stonework4 took at least 12 hours!

[Nyannix]

I meant that AFTER going through the vote for being added and getting added to ksf they get rewarded. People would still only accept the same quality

IMO most of the maps that get accepted aren't that high of quality and shouldn't be rewarded with something like vip

[Sam]

IMO most of the maps that get accepted aren't that high of quality and shouldn't be rewarded with something like vip

Then maybe put up a reward for high quality maps to encourage people to not just shit out their maps like I did?

[Chillinx]

Yes! I think everyone who made a popular map or several accepted maps should have lifetime VIP. No mappers, no surf.

[Crayz]

Some better public recognition maybe, but ksf shouldn't reward mappers

1. this turns mapping into work. People will start to make maps and hope to be retributed with free VIP. Surf mapping is now less about enjoyment of surf, more about free VIP.
2. monopoly. the best mappers/maps always get accepted even without polls. Shit mappers will be discouraged, people will be jealous.
3. mappers would hold a higher status in ksf than both donors and regulars, reducing the value of being a donor/regular and causing more community split/troll/hate/etc

[not_a_zombie]

Nobody's going to say "oh hey, if I make a map I can get paid ~10 cents an hour through ksf vip". This would be more about recognizing mappers for the work they already do.

also crayz i have no idea what the reasoning behind your third point is.

[Sam]

1. this turns mapping into work. People will start to make maps and hope to be retributed with free VIP. Surf mapping is now less about enjoyment of surf, more about free VIP.

I really don't think it would make mapping into work, it's more of a honor to the mappers for providing something well made. Look at zombie, Hardex or Krazy, they're consistently providing us with solid projects already, I think they just deserve a high status for their work.
Mapping is work, but that's also what makes it fun. If you keep redoing that one part til you finally get it right, you just feel good. That's how it is.


2. monopoly. the best mappers/maps always get accepted even without polls. Shit mappers will be discouraged, people will be jealous.

People get jealous already? Good maps get accepted and put on ksf first already? If people get discouraged by not being as good as others who've been mapping for a long time, they're not putting their hearts into what they're making anyway, I'm speaking from experience here.
I've been "mapping" for quite some time now, and before I put out semesterbreak I kept on dropping what I made because it just wasn't good enough compared to what I saw on ksf. It sounds anime to say this, but pulling through that frustration and working on your project til you're satisfied enough to put it out there and compete with others is part of what makes you a real mapper.


3. mappers would hold a higher status in ksf than both donors and regulars, reducing the value of being a donor/regular and causing more community split/troll/hate/etc

Same as 2., part of the community already hates what others put out? And I really don't see mappers being rewarded with vip devalue it as a whole, it's made to give you an advantage by providing you with more servers to surf on, people will want that regardless.


I wouldn't go as far as Chillinx and give every good and well known mapper lifetime VIP, but to give the people who made 666, omnific, all the good maps that stay in the rotation because they're just good deserves respect and reward in my opinion. Like someone being a patreon donor for a youtuber, they're not asked to donate but they volunteer because it just shows their gratitude for all the effort the creator put into the content.

[Crayz]

also crayz i have no idea what the reasoning behind your third point is.

I thought op said perma-vip. Either way giving free VIP just seems like a dumb way to recognize mappers

[Sam]

Either way giving free VIP just seems like a dumb way to recognize mappers

Lol what else can you give people on KSF other than that and cancer?

[not_a_zombie]

I think a better idea might be access to expert/vet server, it kinda sucks to spend so long making a map and then not being able to see the good surfers play it unless they stream or something.

[Crayz]

I really don't think it would make mapping into work, it's more of a honor to the mappers for providing something well made. Look at zombie, Hardex or Krazy, they're consistently providing us with solid projects already, I think they just deserve a high status .....

In my opinion getting your map approved on ksf is reward enough. It provides a shit ton of exposure. Shitty maps get less exposure, good maps get more exposure, there's your incentive and reward to make a good quality map.

[Crayz]

I think a better idea might be access to expert/vet server, it kinda sucks to spend so long making a map and then not being able to see the good surfers play it unless they stream or something.

I agree on that point

[Sam]

That's a point I originally wanted to add but forgot because I'm a moron, maps always go online on expert/veteran first, not being able to be there and getting the surfers' first impressions sucks ass. So does having to pay for it, unless you're high rank of course.

[Sam]

In my opinion getting your map approved on ksf is reward enough. It provides a shit ton of exposure. Shitty maps get less exposure, good maps get more exposure, there's your incentive and reward to make a good quality map.

Is your argument really "You should be grateful the good content you're providing for ksf gets accepted"? Also I don't think ksf can get you enough exposure to get a job or some shit

[Chillinx]

I don't wanna speak on KSF nor mappers behalf but how is giving VIP to mappers too much? Some maps really are amazing, and the product of a lot hard work. And also it's not about giving them recognition, it's about thanking them in a little way, and of course because VIP is convenient for a mapper to have. How are we even arguing this? Mappers as I said make surf, no? I think they deserve much more, for all I hear they get shit talked all the time, when they really deserve nothing but praise.

[Sony]

I like the idea of the mappers getting access to the expert/veteran server

[Sam]

But then again, giving them specific access would probably mean extra work for the admins so giving them vip would probably be easier :v)

[THERAPIST]

why dont u yourself go and donate to these mappers then?

speak with your own wallet before telling others how to do it

[Juxtapo]

why dont u yourself go and donate to these mappers then?

speak with your own wallet before telling others how to do it

KSF doesn't directly lose any money by giving free VIP away. Most mappers are cheap fucks who wouldn't buy VIP anyway. It'd just a way to show appreciation for the people who keep the servers alive by creating new content. I 100% think expert/vet server access should be given to anyone who has a map on KSF. Sangre has had this for several years, not sure why no other mappers have gotten it. Maybe a few months of VIP for mappers who put out maps that get a significant amount of playtime and are enjoyed by a lot of the community.

[Sacred]

KSF doesn't directly lose any money by giving free VIP away. Most mappers are cheap fucks who wouldn't buy VIP anyway. It'd just a way to show appreciation for the people who keep the servers alive by creating new content. I 100% think expert/vet server access should be given to anyone who has a map on KSF. Sangre has had this for several years, not sure why no other mappers have gotten it. Maybe a few months of VIP for mappers who put out maps that get a significant amount of playtime and are enjoyed by a lot of the community.

I just wanted to say that as well. Sangre has had access to the expert (and veteran?) for years now, could be done for others as well. About the VIP... I don't know. Some are worth it, most aren't. How to draw the line?

[THERAPIST]

Some are worth it, most aren't. How to draw the line?

I think this is the biggest problem. Most recent maps are barely even good enough to make it onto the server, let alone get VIP.

[Sam]

I guess there could be a general guideline to what makes a map good:
- Innovative theme e.g. tempest, omnific
- Really well made flow e.g. 666, overgrowth2
- Innovative route/surf
- Innovative and fun bonuses
- Attention to detail
- Environmental design
- Choice of textures
- Visual design (Thought of lighting e.g. salient2, didn't know what else to call it)
- Stage transitions working towards smooth oneshots
- Broad playability: A good t2 should have the same reputation as a good t5 in my opinion since it provides more content for everybody on ksf, not just rank 1k+ players who are able to beat it. Same goes for t5's with good bonuses so beginners etc. can spend their time there instead of trying and failing s1 for 10 minutes and then wait for nextmap.

There are probably a lot more, these are just pointers that already make out a really good map. Another way to determine could be how long they stay in the map cycle, well made maps will always come back up and get nominated.

You could also introduce a rating system in the mapping section (let's say 1-5 stars, 4+ stars is well made and gets rewarded), but I don't know how to implement that.

[murglegurgle]

I guess there could be a general guideline to what makes a map good:
- Innovative theme e.g. tempest, omnific
- Really well made flow e.g. 666, overgrowth2
- Innovative route/surf
- Innovative and fun bonuses
- Attention to detail
- Environmental design
- Choice of textures
- Visual design (Thought of lighting e.g. salient2, didn't know what else to call it)
- Stage transitions working towards smooth oneshots
- Broad playability: A good t2 should have the same reputation as a good t5 in my opinion since it provides more content for everybody on ksf, not just rank 1k+ players who are able to beat it. Same goes for t5's with good bonuses so beginners etc. can spend their time there instead of trying and failing s1 for 10 minutes and then wait for nextmap.

There are probably a lot more, these are just pointers that already make out a really good map. Another way to determine could be how long they stay in the map cycle, well made maps will always come back up and get nominated.

You could also introduce a rating system in the mapping section (let's say 1-5 stars, 4+ stars is well made and gets rewarded), but I don't know how to implement that.

TBH I think this is a bit overkill. Besides, rating a map is really subjective. Someone who can't finish a map could give a poor rating out of spite. Also, some surfers may prefer maps like surf_stick whereas others would never even bother going for completion. As not_a_zombie and Juxtapo were saying, a simple week long (or so) access to vet/expert should suffice.

[sjom7e]

IMO anyone that puts in all the effort that it takes to make a map that is good enough to be added to servers and therefore contributing something to the community should get access to exp/veteran server. Don't really care about VIP especially.. access to all servers should be a given when their map is added. (at least 2-3 months access if u wanna be picky)

[Kusché]

I guess there could be a general guideline to what makes a map good:
- Innovative theme e.g. tempest, omnific
- Really well made flow e.g. 666, overgrowth2
- Innovative route/surf
- Innovative and fun bonuses
- Attention to detail
- Environmental design
- Choice of textures
- Visual design (Thought of lighting e.g. salient2, didn't know what else to call it)
- Stage transitions working towards smooth oneshots
- Broad playability: A good t2 should have the same reputation as a good t5 in my opinion since it provides more content for everybody on ksf, not just rank 1k+ players who are able to beat it. Same goes for t5's with good bonuses so beginners etc. can spend their time there instead of trying and failing s1 for 10 minutes and then wait for nextmap.

There are probably a lot more, these are just pointers that already make out a really good map. Another way to determine could be how long they stay in the map cycle, well made maps will always come back up and get nominated.

You could also introduce a rating system in the mapping section (let's say 1-5 stars, 4+ stars is well made and gets rewarded), but I don't know how to implement that.

I agree with what this murloc guy said, its almost entirely subjective.
(prly shouldve quoted his post)

[Sam]

"this murloc guy" cmon, don't do my man murglegurgle, creator of surf_driftless like this D:

I agree on it being subjective, I guess maps staying in rotation for a long time shows that people like it better than these pointers

[Saya77]

I think if you really wanna go for the VIP reward on the mappers it could be easily decided with the playtime the map has on the servers. E.g. if map xy reaches playtime 500h the mapper gets a reward of 3 months VIP (I just picked these numbers randomly).

[Blink]

also ban mappers of shit maps that are added but played less than 10 hours in the first month

[Sam]

aw fuck

[Juxtapo]

I think if you really wanna go for the VIP reward on the mappers it could be easily decided with the playtime the map has on the servers. E.g. if map xy reaches playtime 500h the mapper gets a reward of 3 months VIP (I just picked these numbers randomly).

I think it should be this but also some human judgement. There's lots of pretty weak maps that get a load of extra playtime because of one absurdly hard stage/bonus (nightmare, syria again, royal, airflow, 666, etc.)

[Sam]

I think it should be this but also some human judgement

I agree on that, maybe 1-3 known mappers who can give their feedback.

Is this thread gonna come to a conclusion or nah?

[Kusché]

I agree on that, maybe 1-3 known mappers who can give their feedback.

Is this thread gonna come to a conclusion or nah?

Known mappers and known surfers + playtime